noise complaint argument escalates to shooting

[squinty]

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2 ... -neighbor/
http://www.khou.com/news/local/Testimon ... 40005.html

I'm actually a big fan of SYG laws, and feel like there is some anti-SYG bias in some media stories about self defense cases. But that doesn't mean people don't try to avail themselves of the laws protection in cases where they don't deserve it, and like most self defense cases this one isn't clear cut.

If I understand it correctly, Rodriguez was standing in the street at the foot of the neighbors' driveway, videotaping the party while discussing the noise complaint with a police dispatcher. Men from the party drove up to confront him, they argued about the noise, the men got out of their truck and Rodriguez drew or flashed his weapon as the men walked towards him. They got angry at him for flashing his weapon, I'm not clear on whether or not the neighbor who threatened to go inside and retrieve his own gun actually went inside and came back out or not. There was some loud cackling that apparently coincides with one or more of the men attempting to disarm Rodriguez. The camera goes all jumpy. You hear shots.

I'm not even that interested in whether this was a "legitimate" self defense claim or not - I'm not clear whether this was a use or misuse of the SYG law - but what is crystal clear to me, as in so many incidents like this, is that both parties had an opportunity to de-escalate and chose not to do so. Rodriguez could have walked back home after realizing they weren't going to turn the music down. (He could have asked more politely. Or stayed home.) The neighbors could have turned the music down per his request, or simply gone back inside and reported the incident to police instead of continuing the confrontation with the armed man in front of their house, or not driven out to meet him.

Discuss whether this was self defense, and how you would resolve or ameliorate the situation in either party's place. Can move to WWYD if preferred.

[Blacksmith]

I'm not clear on whether or not the neighbor who threatened to go inside and retrieve his own gun actually went inside and came back out or not.

They did threaten that.

The final straw that prompted the shooting was that the victim tried to tackle Rodriguez. Which was really a culminating event in a night of stupidity.

Given all that I would say the neighbor was proactive in his own death. About 5% for the neighbor and 95% for Rodriguez being responsible for his stupidity.

What your articles did not mention is that the police were already there and had been there several times trying to get the neighbor to turn the music down.

This about sums it up:

“This is a difficult defense to mount,” says Dana Cole, a legal analyst and defense attorney. “He had no injury, he brought a gun to a noise complaint, and it appeared he was escalating it, by baiting the party-goers.”

[majorhavoc]

OK, I'll say it.

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

Once things began to escalate, I can't really fault his actions. But it's that original decision to leave his property and go over to his neighbor packing heat that I have to wonder about.

[Mall Ninja]

OK, I'll say it.

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

Once things began to escalate, I can't really fault his actions. But it's that original decision to leave his property and go over to his neighbor packing heat that I have to wonder about.

Well, I dont know about this guy, but lets say he CCs. I think most people who carry, carry everywhere they can, and especially if they're expecting trouble. It would seem odd to me to suggest that one carry except when one is expecting trouble. It seems like that would kinda defeat the point...

[Blacksmith]

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

I take a gun just about everywhere I am allowed to. I do not normally show it to people to get them to turn down their car stereo or in hopes that they will be better neighbors even when I am really tired and cranky. The gun is for ending threats to my life when other options fail me.

The existence of the gun by itself did not create this problem. The problem was that the shooter believed that he could use it to impose his will on his neighbors. Besides this being illegal the neighbors were irrational and undaunted by his brandishing his weapon due to drinking way too much alcohol. I am sure there is more to it than this night. There always is.

The really strange thing here is that PR provoked the confrontation and then had the logic fail of believing he was "standing his ground". It was not even his ground, he was in his neighbors driveway.

While the neighbor was wrong about playing his music too loud he was well within his rights to try drive off an armed trespasser who was causing a confrontation and acting in a threatening manner. The right thing to do would have been to let the police handle it.

In this case no one wanted to give up their man card and do the right thing.

ETA- When I have had noise complaints in the past I simply call the police. I keep calling them until the noise complaint goes away.

[Browning 35]

OK, I'll say it.

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

Once things began to escalate, I can't really fault his actions. But it's that original decision to leave his property and go over to his neighbor packing heat that I have to wonder about.

Really? I can. All he had to do was turn around and go home instead of standing on someone elses property waving a gun around.

He just states 'I'm in fear for my life' while standing in the victims driveway, while he's the only one at the scene holding a gun and while the guys from the party are just standing there with their arms up and not moving for the benefit of the dispatcher and the camera (so that he'd hopefully be legally justified in shooting his neighbor).

What a dickhead.

I realize that you're only talking about the shooters actions during a very narrow window of time, but to me none of that would have been necessary if he hadn't gone over to his neighbors house and waved a gun around and acted like a jerk for a long period of time.

This guy gives gun owners a bad name and I hope he goes to prison.

[Blacksmith]

It would seem odd to me to suggest that one carry except when one is expecting trouble.

Like I said, I carry all the time. If I am "expecting trouble" I really need to reevaluate where I am going and why I am going there. There is enough shit in the world without going looking for it.

[squinty]

Because if someone doesn't, this isn't going to be a balanced discussion. Why did he bring a gun to a noise complaint?

I take a gun just about everywhere I am allowed to. I do not normally show it to people to get them to turn down their car stereo or in hopes that they will be better neighbors even when I am really tired and cranky. The gun is for ending threats to my life when other options fail me.

The existence of the gun by itself did not create this problem. The problem was that the shooter believed that he could use it to impose his will on his neighbors. Besides this being illegal the neighbors were irrational and undaunted by his brandishing his weapon due to drinking way too much alcohol. I am sure there is more to it than this night. There always is.

The really strange thing here is that PR provoked the confrontation and then had the logic fail of believing he was "standing his ground". It was not even his ground, he was in his neighbors driveway.

While the neighbor was wrong about playing his music too loud he was well within his rights to try drive off an armed trespasser who was causing a confrontation and acting in a threatening manner. The right thing to do would have been to let the police handle it.

In this case no one wanted to give up their man card and do the right thing.

ETA- When I have had noise complaints in the past I simply call the police. I keep calling them until the noise complaint goes away.

iirc Rodriguez was in the street at the foot of the neighbor's driveway, just off the property line. The men he shot may well have been standing on the neighbors' property. It does seem like a calculated and bogus self defense claim, but I don't think he was trespassing. The argument he might make (I'm NOT saying it has merit) is:

-I had a right to be in the public street,I had a legal right to carry while I was there,I had a right to record a publicly audible and visible disturbance of the peace, and a right to engage my neighbors in conversation about the noise - all of my actions leading up to the confrontation were legal.

-While I engaged in these perfectly legal activities I was menaced by three younger, stronger men, who seemed belligerent and intoxicated. Even though they were unarmed, they did outnumber me and outclass me physically, and when they advanced towards me I believed it was with violent intent, and that belief seemed reasonable based on their words and demeanor, and the circumstances. Without resorting to weapons, I could not have defended against such a disparity of force.

-Rather than keep their distance they attacked me, even after I demonstrated that I was armed, forcing me to defend myself.

I think the statement "I'm not going to lose to these people anymore" - something like that - says volumes about his real intent, and state of mind.


A prosecutor might argue to the contrary:

-Look at the neighbor stand with his hands up and out to his sides, not advancing toward Mr. Rodriguez at all.
-Note that Mr. Rodriguez sounds angry and belligerent on the tape, and note that he sought out the confrontation. He came up to the edge of the neighbor's property, the neighbor did not pursue him, and Rodriguez continued to press the argument even when it became obvious the neighbors wouldn't turn down their music. Mr. Rodriguez was looking for an opportunity to fire his weapon. The neighbors gave him that opportunity when they, being confronted by an angry and belligerent armed man, tried desperately - but unsuccessfully - to disarm him before he could shoot them. Their actions were prompted by his display of the weapon, not the other way around.

I'll let a jury decide which of those arguments holds merit. Right or wrong, how could the neighbors have done a better job keeping themselves alive in that situation? Would it have been at all possible for them to deescalate the situation, even if Rodriguez was the aggressor?
Certainly Rodriguez could have kept himself out of jail by just staying home. Blacksmith's reply about expecting trouble echoes my own. In Rodriguez' place I'd have stayed home.

[Blacksmith]

I had a right to be in the public street,I had a legal right to carry while I was there

Nope

Open carry is illegal in Texas. If he was showing his gun to people and demanding that they take some kind of actions that is akin to a threat.

Clearly the neighbors could have avoided the whole thing by turning the music down. They chose not to. They chose unwisely.

[hatchtrikk]

This guy is a fucking idiot.


To answer the OPs original question about SYG:



Rodriguez failed. The neighbor, had he been carrying, would have been in the right to shoot that idiot. So would anyone else in the home or at the party since it was THEIR ground to stand.

Rodriguez went to someone else's ground to stand on, started shit, brandished and threatened.

He was 100% in the wrong.

This is Texas. If you ask nicely, most people would be cool and gladly turn it down. If that doesn't work, do like Blacksmith said and keep calling the police until the noise goes away.

YOU DON'T PULL YOUR GUN UNLESS YOU ARE GOING TO USE IT.

Fuck this guy for trying to play the system and fuck the defense for trying to make it seem like a righteous shoot.

At a birthday party, no less.


End rant. Sorry for being so coarse.

[Blacksmith]

Here is a better video.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 611376.php

Jurors sat captivated Tuesday by the video. The last seven minutes show Rodriguez in Danaher's driveway shining a flashlight at the party guests and demanding that they turn down the music.

Although he shouts several times that the music is too loud, it is not heard on the recording.

As a party goer approached Rodriguez to find out why he was in the driveway, Rodriguez's voice turns low.

"Get back. I will shoot you," Rodriguez can be heard saying. He apparently drew his gun and the man from the party raised his hands to reason with him.

[squinty]

Here is a better video.

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas ... 611376.php

Jurors sat captivated Tuesday by the video. The last seven minutes show Rodriguez in Danaher's driveway shining a flashlight at the party guests and demanding that they turn down the music.

Although he shouts several times that the music is too loud, it is not heard on the recording.

As a party goer approached Rodriguez to find out why he was in the driveway, Rodriguez's voice turns low.

"Get back. I will shoot you," Rodriguez can be heard saying. He apparently drew his gun and the man from the party raised his hands to reason with him.

Apparently the links I posted featured heavily edited video. Interesting that the police were already there - had they come in response to party goers 911 call? - and he doesn't register that as anything but "there must be drunk police here to." Thanks for finding a more complete version.
Also, does he sound sort of like Milton from Office Space?

[KentsOkay]

According to the one video, Rodriguez was none for pulling bullshit like that.

It's because of assholes like this guy we aren't allowed to have nice things.

[jamoni]

Idiots.
Stupid to have a party that loud without consulting your neighbors. Hell, invite them over, and even if they say no, they'll be way less likely to call the cops.
Stupid to refuse to be quiet after the police show up.
Stupid to go over there at all.
Stupid to try and reason with drunk assholes.
Stupid to talk shit to a guy with a gun.
Stupid to talk shit when you are a guy with a gun.
Stupid stupid stupid.

[Dawgboy]

This is a great example of why SYG laws are not necessarily a good thing. People get irate, and then think they have the right to kill. If this was the evidence given to me as a juror, I would be wanting to convict for murder 1. This man had no right to brandish and threaten his neighbors.

So where were the LEO's during this 22 minute video? I thought that Rodriguez had called them himself. Is it extremely rural and took a long time? or is "Man with gun" not a priority call?

[squinty]

According to the one video, Rodriguez was none for pulling bullshit like that.

It's because of assholes like this guy we aren't allowed to have nice things.

Nice things like stand your ground laws? Because the story first came to my attention via a left wing magazine that blamed stand you ground laws, not Rodriguez' actions, for the shooting.

The video Blacksmit posted seems far more damning, as it appears he's just standing around at the party for several seconds or minutes, talking about how afraid he is, while nobody engages him or addresses him. He does note that they are all making cell phone calls about him, and you can hear people talking about him in the background.

[Blacksmith]

People have strange ideas about how the law works all the time. Kind of like adverse possession laws. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse. PR will have his day in court and he will lose. He might even get the death penalty if there is other evidence out there. His understanding of how the law worked sounds just as good as the magazine article you read.

Laws that allow people to exercise deadly force based upon an adult's personal responsibility scare the hell out of some people. Usually the same people that don't believe that most people are responsible enough to exercise their rights properly.

"Should the law be changed?" is a question for somewhere else. I would say if the jury rules this a good shoot they are either wrong or the law has an issue with it that could be looked at.

Generally though; arguing to change a law because a miniscule number of people "might not be" following the law is pure idiocy.

[Regular Guy]

Mmmmm, why was the shooter responding to a noise complaint. It's up to the police to handle the noise complaint, not you. At all.

If I file a noise complaint I don't make ANY contact with the noise maker. This guy went looking for shit and found it. Everyone did everything wrong. Jail.

[jamoni]

If I file a noise complaint I don't make ANY contact with the noise maker.

This. It simply invites retaliation if they put two and two together and decide you called the cops. Best to remain anonymous, not get in a penis length contest, and let your neighbors live and your ass stay out of jail or the hospital.

[KentsOkay]

According to the one video, Rodriguez was none for pulling bullshit like that.

It's because of assholes like this guy we aren't allowed to have nice things.

Nice things like stand your ground laws? Because the story first came to my attention via a left wing magazine that blamed stand you ground laws, not Rodriguez' actions, for the shooting.

The video Blacksmit posted seems far more damning, as it appears he's just standing around at the party for several seconds or minutes, talking about how afraid he is, while nobody engages him or addresses him. He does note that they are all making cell phone calls about him, and you can hear people talking about him in the background.

Correct. Blaming laws instead of people for people's actions.

[squinty]

This is a great example of why SYG laws are not necessarily a good thing. People get irate, and then think they have the right to kill. If this was the evidence given to me as a juror, I would be wanting to convict for murder 1. This man had no right to brandish and threaten his neighbors.

So where were the LEO's during this 22 minute video? I thought that Rodriguez had called them himself. Is it extremely rural and took a long time? or is "Man with gun" not a priority call?

I agree w/blacksmith again that it's not SYG laws' fault people break them, though ignorance of the law on the part of gun owners - and sometimes judges and prosecutors - is definitely a problem. (Pardon me while I scoop up the politics we all just stepped in, I'll just put it in this ziplock baggie and toss it..done)
But if you watch the video Blacksmith posted - correct me if I'm wrong, but, it seems like police are already there? One minute in.

[TacAir]

re: Blacksmith's -
"Laws that allow people to exercise deadly force based upon an adult's personal responsibility scare the hell out of some people. Usually the same people that don't believe that most people are responsible enough to exercise their rights properly. "

On the opposite end are laws not allowing the sale of large containers of soda pop - as it would 'be bad for you'.

I know some folks are frightened by the thought of folks toting firearms - it is scarey in some ways.

Living someplace where the State dictates how you will live is even more frightening. George Orwell was ahead of the curve.

Bottom line, someone is going to jail, for negligent homicide, if nothing else. I'm bookmarking the source for followup - thanks Squinty.

[Browning 35]

The video Blacksmit posted seems far more damning, as it appears he's just standing around at the party for several seconds or minutes, talking about how afraid he is, while nobody engages him or addresses him. He does note that they are all making cell phone calls about him, and you can hear people talking about him in the background.

Yeah, I think that by the time this is over with he's really going to regret making that video.

As a juror With the video you can see what the chain of events were, hear what was said and see what the demeanor of the party-goers was like.

However Without that video as a juror I might have imagined that he just went over merely to ask them to turn their music down and that a bunch of drunks looking to beat on someone and looking for a fight jumped him for almost nothing.

If he ends up screwed it'll be because of that video.

[raptor]

Idiots.
Stupid to have a party that loud without consulting your neighbors. Hell, invite them over, and even if they say no, they'll be way less likely to call the cops.
Stupid to refuse to be quiet after the police show up.
Stupid to go over there at all.
Stupid to try and reason with drunk assholes.
Stupid to talk shit to a guy with a gun.
Stupid to talk shit when you are a guy with a gun.
Stupid stupid stupid.

I agree...to all of this. IMO this is a case of play stupid games and win stupid prizes.

As for SYG laws I am a staunch proponent of them within reasonable limits. What I see is that SYG right is claimed without a corresponding personal responsibility, that goes with every right, being present. Rights and responsibilities go hand in hand.

The law says you can stand your ground, but does NOT say you have to stand your ground...especially when there is a safe location nearby. Only a fool fights in a burning house.


Edited to add:
Carrying a CCW is not a provocation in my mind especially if I am in my home or on property I own. Having said that I would never, ever brandish the weapon in a situation like this. I would retreat to the house and get the police out there to deal with this. LA has a stronger stand you ground law than every state except FL. Even so the absolute last thing I want to do is unholster a CCW, much less use it. That means a lot of steps have failed.