You! OFF the lifeboat!

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by CryHavoc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:59 am

KnightoftheRoc wrote:So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
I think I'm a little confused here. Is it a violation of his parole if he drinks? It seems to me that your daughter is a grown woman at 23 years old and would probably have gotten hit on by 10 drunk guys the minute she stepped into a bar, so I guess I'm not getting what exactly the problem was. You tell the guy: "this isn't a bar and go get drunk someplace else and don't come back until you sleep it off". I mean, the guy took "no" for an answer when he was drunk, so it's not like he's a rapist. On the other hand, your daughter is about to become his niece and that's a big no-no - although not a blood relation. Sorry I guess it doesn't faze me when I see stuff like this. I grew up and currently live in a little redneck town - some of these people around here would hit on their own cousin at a funeral.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by LBB » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:00 pm

You had no real rules

you should have rules like this:
drinking -> out
contact to other members -> out
.... -> out


Some people only learn with hard punishment

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Prepared American » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:07 pm

CryHavoc wrote:
KnightoftheRoc wrote:So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
I think I'm a little confused here. Is it a violation of his parole if he drinks? It seems to me that your daughter
is a grown woman at 23 years old and would probably have gotten hit on by 10 drunk guys the minute she stepped into a bar, so I guess I'm not getting what exactly the problem was. You tell the guy: "this isn't a bar and go get drunk someplace else and don't come back until you sleep it off". I mean, the guy took "no" for an answer when he was drunk, so it's not like he's a rapist. On the other hand, your daughter is about to become his niece and that's a big no-no - although not a blood relation. Sorry I guess it doesn't faze me when I see stuff like this. I grew up in a little redneck town - some of these people around here would hit on their own cousin at a funeral.
It seems to me that the Guy knew it was the wrong thing to do, since he waited for KOTR to leave, and then made the daughter feel uncomfortable enough to speak up about it to his sister who felt unnerved enough to call the Knight and then agree with the decision, I would imagine some details have been left out also to protect the innocent.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:09 pm

Prepared American wrote:
CryHavoc wrote:
KnightoftheRoc wrote:So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
I think I'm a little confused here. Is it a violation of his parole if he drinks? It seems to me that your daughter
is a grown woman at 23 years old and would probably have gotten hit on by 10 drunk guys the minute she stepped into a bar, so I guess I'm not getting what exactly the problem was. You tell the guy: "this isn't a bar and go get drunk someplace else and don't come back until you sleep it off". I mean, the guy took "no" for an answer when he was drunk, so it's not like he's a rapist. On the other hand, your daughter is about to become his niece and that's a big no-no - although not a blood relation. Sorry I guess it doesn't faze me when I see stuff like this. I grew up in a little redneck town - some of these people around here would hit on their own cousin at a funeral.
It seems to me that the Guy knew it was the wrong thing to do, since he waited for KOTR to leave, and then made the daughter feel uncomfortable enough to speak up about it to his sister who felt unnerved enough to call the Knight and then agree with the decision, I would imagine some details have been left out also to protect the innocent.
I agree the brother shouldn't be tarred as a rapist, but there's also a big difference between an unwelcome pass in a bar, from a non-family member, and somebody who lives in your home invading your bedroom and pressuring you for sexual contact.

And yes, it's a violation of his parole if he drinks.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by raptor » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:19 pm

KnightoftheRoc wrote:I appreciate the pats on the back, but I'd like to hear how others would handle something like this when the SHTF. I'm cool with how I handled this, no regrets (aside from it happening in the first place, of course), and I'm not second guessing myself on it. He's out, drama concluded, I need do nothing more unless he decides to do something later on in retaliation or something, and frankly, I don't see that happening. The size disparity between us is nearly a 2:1 ratio, and he honestly doesn't seem like he's ever consumed enough booze to get THAT brave. Instructions for when I'm not home have been issued, and the cops can have him if he starts anything later on.

So, like I said before- the zombies are moaning outside the door, and you have something like this to deal with- how do you handle it ?
(And let's keep the forum rules in mind, please- no >ahem< "mercy killings" or other ass-hattery).
In my household (in any situation) every invited guest is afforded the "protection of the household". This courtesy is afford to the guest so long as the guest respects the household and its members. Once a guest directly affects the safety of a household member that guest must leave.

In this case the BIL was a guest and this event happened, he would be asked to leave at the earliest possible point that it was safe for him to leave. If there was a direct threat outside I would segregate him from the rest of the group so it was clear he was not welcome but allow him to stay until such time as it was safe to leave. However, he would be asked to leave.

If the threat was more immediate and the family member(s) life was in danger, appropriate action would be taken to mitigate the danger and the person would leave when it was safe to permit his departure.

In the case where there was a family member is threatening another family member then that would be a much more difficult situation.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Hollis » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:43 pm

Raptor, for normal people I can agree. This guy is a addict. Sober they can be normal, great and super cool people. Once intoxicated they loose control over their lives, from the inability to do the right thing to the possibility of a psychotic episode (rare but does happen). The mistakes that were made, I believe, were honest mistakes ignoring who this person was and their problem. IMHO, the most important aspect for addicts is to maintain is sobriety. More important than a place to live, meals, etc.

AL-Anon has some good information for future reference. Addicts don't walk around life with a "A" marked on their foreheads. It is just a good idea not to be a enabler. It will prolong their bottoming out and makes things worse for those all around.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by LBB » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:43 pm

CryHavoc wrote:
KnightoftheRoc wrote:So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
I think I'm a little confused here. Is it a violation of his parole if he drinks? It seems to me that your daughter is a grown woman at 23 years old and would probably have gotten hit on by 10 drunk guys the minute she stepped into a bar, so I guess I'm not getting what exactly the problem was. You tell the guy: "this isn't a bar and go get drunk someplace else and don't come back until you sleep it off". I mean, the guy took "no" for an answer when he was drunk, so it's not like he's a rapist. On the other hand, your daughter is about to become his niece and that's a big no-no - although not a blood relation. Sorry I guess it doesn't faze me when I see stuff like this. I grew up and currently live in a little redneck town - some of these people around here would hit on their own cousin at a funeral.
But this would be her choice to go into a bar.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnifeStyle » Sun Oct 02, 2011 3:10 pm

This is a side of me view get to see. By now everyone knows I counsel and deal with a lot of cases, always positively and professionally without judgement. It's what I do for a living, I consistently get certified and retrained, I always play the high ground with my residents and cases. 3 AM, even. It's my job.

In my personal life, however, I actually have a choice. I can spend my time helping others as my natural drive dictates, or I can see a dead end coming and turn off before getting stuck with it. I've lost count of how many times I've gotten friends chiding me for my 'cold' attitude toward their latest new friend because of their 'exaggerated' flaws...The crash varies from real intentions coming out, to substance abuse, to psychological or psychiatric issues going ablaze. No one seems to connect my handling breakdowns for a living how I see these things coming. Unfortunately, these landmine-personalities keep on coming. I can be wrong and have been before, but it's rare.

Here's a sampling of what has resulted from the people whom have made me put my foot down. At the time, everyone thought I was biased and just 'didn't like them' while everyone else was charitable and generous.
-Became alcoholic at age 18, dropped out of top state school and lost full scholarship.
-Dropped out of full scholarship and grant, currently living with drug dealer, repeatedly getting pregnant and miscarrying.
-Kicked out of national guard for mental instability, currently has an online high school diploma and isn't eligible for most types of employment. Wears ACUs around casually.
-Thrown out of house, whereabouts unknown.
-Vanished from college under the influence of three drugs, whereabouts unknown, police still contact me for any hints of where he could be.
-Incarcerated for multiple statutory rape charges.
-Fired for selling elderly mother's pain meds to teenagers he worked with.
-Became unstable, removed by police, vanished.
-Washed out of both college and military, currently living with parents, constantly contacts former classmates to harass them and try to relive his glory days as a popular senior.
-Became well-known as a literal sociopath, multiple ex-girlfriends are in therapy, various allegations and red-flags are closing in on him as he gets deeper into the military.
-Committed to psychiatric evaluation by college, parents sued to avoid it, whereabouts unknown.

...I don't want to trust my instincts, but I'm now forced to.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Doctorr Fabulous » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:05 pm

CryHavoc wrote:
KnightoftheRoc wrote:So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
I think I'm a little confused here. Is it a violation of his parole if he drinks? It seems to me that your daughter is a grown woman at 23 years old and would probably have gotten hit on by 10 drunk guys the minute she stepped into a bar, so I guess I'm not getting what exactly the problem was. You tell the guy: "this isn't a bar and go get drunk someplace else and don't come back until you sleep it off". I mean, the guy took "no" for an answer when he was drunk, so it's not like he's a rapist. On the other hand, your daughter is about to become his niece and that's a big no-no - although not a blood relation. Sorry I guess it doesn't faze me when I see stuff like this. I grew up and currently live in a little redneck town - some of these people around here would hit on their own cousin at a funeral.
I've only seen three ways out of alcohol. 1. Cold turkey. 2. Cold body (maybe not death, but definitely rock bottom, major losses across the board) and 3. cold epiphany. Before Iraq I was so scared that I was drinking about a paycheck's worth of hooch every month. $600 in booze, everything from Keystone $10 30-racks to top-shelf tequila. I went to a party the new years eve after I got back, drank an entire handle of Jose (straight, slugged the bottle in under and hour) and continued drinking. What it took for me was six of my friends (mostly girls) stopping m mid-beer and telling me that some of the people there made them feel nervous. I ended up shooting 2 bags of lactated ringers on the kitchen table, thus starting my interest in survival. While my method won't work for everyone, I now have a purpose for staying sober enough to drive if I'm the most trustworthy person there.

Granted the Navy, my family, and AA still think I'm an alcoholic, but anyone who drinks a sixpack in one night is in the same boat.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Ad'lan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:45 pm

The only thing I can see to have done differently is to have laid down a ground rule of non drinking, but I also see why you didn't. Maybe steering him to secular sobriety, or such like group as others have mentioned.

But you did good, I hope I would have done as well as you in a similar situation. In a PAW scenario, well if they are blood, or I owe them in anyway, I might let them stay till it's not certain death (under quarantine/restricted conditions), then Send them on their way with a basic back pack of kit.

If I can spare it.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Number_D » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:05 pm

I think you handled it the best way you could. Rolling the dice on someone getting out of prison may sound foolish to some but it's different when it's a family member whether it's your blood or that of your SO. You aren't just dragging in some ex-junkie who responded to an ad on craigslist, it's someone you know and love behind the substance abuse. You gave him a 2nd chance and a place to stay when he had no where else to go. For some people, albeit maybe 10%, that's the kick in the pants they need to go straight. Believe it or not some abusers respond better to charity because they started using to escape the punishment they felt they were getting from life. You do however have to be firm. If you let slide just one time it isn't a 2nd chance. Letting him live with you is the 2nd chance everything after that is 3rd, 4th, etc. until they just assume there will be no real consequences for their actions. So many people use substance abuse as a crutch and an excuse and any leniency is just fueling the fire. My father was an alcoholic from the time he was a teenager until he died at the ripe old age of 58. If you don't call these people out on their bullshit and hold them accountable for ALL of their actions, sober or not, nothing would've changed.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Hollis » Sun Oct 02, 2011 6:57 pm

kidsizecoffin wrote: If you don't call these people out on their bullshit and hold them accountable for ALL of their actions, sober or not, nothing would've changed.

That is one point we could argue. I would not be saying your are wrong or right, but enabling only makes things worse. It is a question of time before they bottom out or die. The sooner they bottom out, the sooner a better life for them starts.

You can talk to the AA or the Al-Anon people and they would disagree. One agency I worked for had a pretty good AA group. I learned a lot. The Alky or druggie needs to take responsibility for their actions. Hiding it or making up things to cover it, will only make it more worse in the long run. That is what seems to be the best route from my understanding.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by phil_in_cs » Sun Oct 02, 2011 7:21 pm

Ad'lan wrote:In a PAW scenario, well if they are blood, or I owe them in anyway, I might let them stay till it's not certain death (under quarantine/restricted conditions), then Send them on their way with a basic back pack of kit.

If I can spare it.
If I recall, a "Here, have this and leave" bag was one of the options in the old thread on what to do when marginal friends and relatives showed up at your location after TSHTF. A bag with some food and basic tools, packed and ready to hand out. You give your in-law/coworker/old college friend the bag-o-stuff and point them towards some other location, with a clear understanding they can not return.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by mobilesuithomer » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:27 am

I'm going to echo what a couple of other people have said, in that you should have kicked him out as soon as he showed signs of drinking. I can understand why you didn't, though, and I won't fault you for it. Handled things splendidly, a job well done, etc. In fact, kicking him out may lead to his recovery, for reasons already brought up.

At this point, my main concern would be the future. It's possible (however unlikely) that he will show back up, under two very different circumstances:

1. He nurses a grudge for a long while (probably from prison, if he keeps down his current path) and decides it's your fault. He will then attempt to find you and fight you. I don't see this happening, though, because your post makes me think (perhaps incorrectly) that he isn't violent by nature. Wouldn't end well for either of you.

--OR--

2. He shows back up clean and sober, or at least faking cleanliness and sobriety. He apologizes profusely and asks for a second chance. He isn't necessarily asking to move back in, but he does want to stay in contact with his sister. Is there some kind of plan in place for them to maintain contact in a way that doesn't involve your home? Or are you and your fiance planning on cutting off any and all contact with him, now and forever?

Also, as far as dealing with alcoholic/addict friends and family member, about all I know comes from reading the first 20 or so pages of this CRACKED thread. Not that this is going to stop me from acting like I know what I'm talking about.

From what I can gather, the important things to keep in mind are:

1. Addicts have to come clean for themselves in order for the recovery process to work. I could make guesses about why, but I'm sure there are people here who actually know and can explain why.

2. Addicts sometimes have to hit rock bottom before they understand their situation and how it's affecting their life. Not always, but sometimes.

3. Addictions are scary, persistent, lifelong things. A person addicted to X will never, ever be able to use X in moderation. There is no such thing as "just one". Making it worse is the fact that the addiction will consistently try to convince you that this is not true. That you can stop at one X. That you've earned it--that you deserve it, even. I know this one is true from battling my own addiction. Not pleasant.

4. Addicts attempting to recover cannot be around addicts who are not.

5. Addiction recovery takes more than sheer willpower, and being addicted is not a sign of weakness.

6. Addictions are generally placeholders for something else. A person addicted to X isn't just doing X for its own sake. Instead, X is meant to give the person something they are otherwise not getting, or to fill some kind of void.

Sorry if I'm derailing. I just thought it might help to post that link, so people taking in addicts can know what to expect. Aside from the possibility of stolen valuables, I mean.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Gingerbread Man » Mon Oct 03, 2011 9:31 am

I think you did the right thing across the board. I recently had some friends who would not listen to reason no matter what I told them. One guy wasn't paying taxes and was chronically unemployed. I tried to start a few businesses with him but he wanted none of what I had to offer. Being a disabled veteran I get certain benefits and preferences with govt. contracts. I just needed someone to do the work, it would have been a 75-25% situation where as I did the contract work and he did the physical work. The guy does great custom construction work and home remodeling. Anyway, I had to kick him to the curb once he pull a gun on someone after he participated in mutual road rage conflict, threatened to shoot up my office and told me to divorce my wife. Yeah, a little out of line.

People have emotional investments/hang ups that cause them to focus on personal destruction. So, it's taken me about 20 years to realize this but I focus on those that actually want help and express it.

I've read a few comments about laying down a no drinking rule, however the state parole board already told this guy he was not to drink.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Foxen » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:11 pm

Thanks for sharing Knight, I know it was not easy for you.

Personally, I probably need to become a "harder" person. I'm probably too charitable and often think that people will just "work" things out or everyone will MAKE a way to get along or at least tolerate each other. There's only been a few times where I took really strong stands... and when I haven't, there's been a few incidents where bad things happened. However, as I get older, I am becoming more vocal, and less patient with BS.

If the world was coming apart or came apart and I had a total idiot that could endanger others (or him/herself) with us...

Depending on the situation, it depends if I involve everyone else (granted if I'm the leader of the group or one of the leading members). If I believe that the situation warrants that everyone else be in either on the decision making process or at least gets a voice especially if they would be uncomfortable knowing that we're harboring someone that could be potentially dangerous...

Conditions would be set... if you do ABC you will be warned or you will be booted, or if you don't do XYZ, etc. I'd probably go with a three strikes and you're out system... unless those first two strikes are SO severe that no more quarter will be granted. I would be clear to the group WHY we are doing this. I am assuming our group can only tolerate so much. If the person makes their three offenses, I would help them leave. Pack em' a bag of goodies, water, etc., whatever they "earned" via their stay with us, and help them leave...

I made a promise to myself that if my wife's brothers show up ten years from now begging for $10,000 or the mob will kill em'... I'd slam the door in their faces. I made it clear to her that's what I'd do. Periodically when she's up for the talk I'll bring it up...and ask her if she can handle that. Her family has been abusing her for years, often taking advantage of her charity and kinship. I also did almost everything I could to steer her brothers in a direction of anywhere but down... however due to circumstances out of my control whatever we had set up for them was destroyed and taken away. Thank the stupidity of certain pastoral retardedness. I gave her brothers a lot of my personal life, time, effort, money, and friends... and in a sense we failed... so if one or both do come to us begging for money (probably a scam), I will not help. I already gave them their chance, and I tried and made my effort. There's not much fight left in me these days to save their sorry souls and lives... I just hope my wife will be as stern if the time ever comes.

Come the PAW... I'll probably give people more chances than they deserve, but I just hope it won't be one chance too many that wrecks the life of another. I can only hope to be as strong and make a strong a stance as you had Knight if and when the time comes. And I do hope that my brother-in-laws don't ever end up where I fear they may be headed.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KYZHunters » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:56 pm

KotR, you can always tell a good thread when you see long-time members with low post counts surface to comment.
I've been down this path with my jailbird meth-head brother-in-law (currently a resident of the Pasco County, Fl. jail) three times and it should have been only one. The last time, we finally realized that he not only liked drugs, but the whole shitbird lifestyle that goes with it, and no amount of love and support was going to replace the exciting and glamorous life of a meth addict. So the old lady bought him a one way Greyhound ticket to Tampa and handed him a bag of sandwiches; if she'd given him money for food he would have spent it on drugs...another lesson we had to learn more than once.
I think you went beyond the call of duty on this one.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by ninja-elbow » Tue Oct 04, 2011 6:55 pm

Hollis wrote:Raptor, for normal people I can agree. This guy is a addict. Sober they can be normal, great and super cool people. Once intoxicated they loose control over their lives, from the inability to do the right thing to the possibility of a psychotic episode (rare but does happen). The mistakes that were made, I believe, were honest mistakes ignoring who this person was and their problem. IMHO, the most important aspect for addicts is to maintain is sobriety. More important than a place to live, meals, etc.

AL-Anon has some good information for future reference. Addicts don't walk around life with a "A" marked on their foreheads. It is just a good idea not to be a enabler. It will prolong their bottoming out and makes things worse for those all around.
My expereince with Al-Anon is that, truly, as the one in any relationship with an addict, you only have control of your own self. That is how you play it. Disengage and cut and walk away on guard. You got to have the strength to set the parameters and do the cutting though and for many that is the hard thing to do. You got to love yourself to protect yourself.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Wildeman_13 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 7:35 pm

In the real world, I think you did almost the same thing I would have. I'm more towards Phil's side of the bus tho, in that No Booze means No Booze. I can speak from personal experience when I say this as I have family members who have fucked up and are working to fix things. Booze being the cause in my case and in your BILs case. Had he been young and dumb and held up a liquor store and was in prison for that, I might be more lenient. But he went to prison for a Booze related offense, the DWI. So yeah... No Leeway there for me.

As to the PAW/SHTF/ZPAW situation, The booze I want to drink/medicinal needs gets locked up with only me having the key. So if his drinking is the cause of his lack of self-control, we just solved that issue. If he were to make the same mistake with my daughter sober, well now we get to the heart of it. Zombies at the door? I won't throw him out, as others have said, that's akin to murder. I will make it plain to him that ANY fuck up means he gets to see how far he can run out the back door, however. I would also keep him confined to certain parts of the house, specifically the parts where my daughters are not. If any further trouble is even hinted at, he gets a bag of food and some tools, we cause a lot of noise on one side of the house and he gets to make a run for it. Three strikes and you are out.
raptor wrote: Anyone know if there is an asshat gene? If so it must be a dominant gene.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Hollis » Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:44 pm

Wildeman_13 wrote: As to the PAW/SHTF/ZPAW situation, The booze I want to drink/medicinal needs gets locked up with only me having the key. So if his drinking is the cause of his lack of self-control, we just solved that issue. If he were to make the same mistake with my daughter sober, well now we get to the heart of it. Zombies at the door? I won't throw him out, as others have said, that's akin to murder. I will make it plain to him that ANY fuck up means he gets to see how far he can run out the back door, however. I would also keep him confined to certain parts of the house, specifically the parts where my daughters are not. If any further trouble is even hinted at, he gets a bag of food and some tools, we cause a lot of noise on one side of the house and he gets to make a run for it. Three strikes and you are out.

I think, keeping him or throwing him out really depends on how dangerous he is to the survival of the household, that is in a PAW situation.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:12 pm

Hollis wrote:
Wildeman_13 wrote: As to the PAW/SHTF/ZPAW situation, The booze I want to drink/medicinal needs gets locked up with only me having the key. So if his drinking is the cause of his lack of self-control, we just solved that issue. If he were to make the same mistake with my daughter sober, well now we get to the heart of it. Zombies at the door? I won't throw him out, as others have said, that's akin to murder. I will make it plain to him that ANY fuck up means he gets to see how far he can run out the back door, however. I would also keep him confined to certain parts of the house, specifically the parts where my daughters are not. If any further trouble is even hinted at, he gets a bag of food and some tools, we cause a lot of noise on one side of the house and he gets to make a run for it. Three strikes and you are out.

I think, keeping him or throwing him out really depends on how dangerous he is to the survival of the household, that is in a PAW situation.
No brainer though, if he's already a liability in present day, non-apocalypse world.


Could somebody be a liability in day to day life, but an asset in a survival situation? I don't think so.
Maybe in limited circumstances. I know a few guys who are possessed of significant technical ingenuity, above average physical prowess, a variety of skills wrt home and engine repairing, are good shots and remarkably unfazed by risk or violence. A couple have been romantic partners of my sister, others have been relatives or buddies of same. Some have lived with my sister in free housing provided by my dad (love to get him in an al-anon or narc-anon meeting) and all have worked for my family on and off over the years. They are drug users and alcohol abusers.

They have all victimized my family repeatedly by theft, coercion, violence, crude con-artistry, fraud, and essentially holding my sister hostage. They are fairly unrestrained now, with the threat of law enforcement and incarceration looming over them. In a survival situation, their untrustworthiness would negate any and every asset they might otherwise bring. In a WROL situation I'd be terrified of turning my back on any of them, and they'd be chucked out immediately - if for some reason I hadn't removed them from my life long before the SHTF. My dad, I'm sure, would say "we need their skills and their help, just keep an eye on them."

So you and two other people are in a SHTF situation, and your family's safety is at stake. One is a loyal and trusted friend, without much in the way of real world skills to bring to the situation. The other's a highly adaptable and skilled heartless sociopath who will be your ally for as long as he thinks it's in his best interest, but will slit your throat or otherwise exploit you the minute he thinks that's in his best interest. War (or survival situations) make strange bedfellows, who do you keep?

I keep the guy who won't fork me over.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Wildeman_13 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 9:49 pm

squinty wrote:No brainer though, if he's already a liability in present day, non-apocalypse world.


Could somebody be a liability in day to day life, but an asset in a survival situation? I don't think so.
Maybe in limited circumstances. I know a few guys who are possessed of significant technical ingenuity, above average physical prowess, a variety of skills wrt home and engine repairing, are good shots and remarkably unfazed by risk or violence. A couple have been romantic partners of my sister, others have been relatives or buddies of same. Some have lived with my sister in free housing provided by my dad (love to get him in an al-anon or narc-anon meeting) and all have worked for my family on and off over the years. They are drug users and alcohol abusers.

They have all victimized my family repeatedly by theft, coercion, violence, crude con-artistry, fraud, and essentially holding my sister hostage. They are fairly unrestrained now, with the threat of law enforcement and incarceration looming over them. In a survival situation, their untrustworthiness would negate any and every asset they might otherwise bring. In a WROL situation I'd be terrified of turning my back on any of them, and they'd be chucked out immediately - if for some reason I hadn't removed them from my life long before the SHTF. My dad, I'm sure, would say "we need their skills and their help, just keep an eye on them."

So you and two other people are in a SHTF situation, and your family's safety is at stake. One is a loyal and trusted friend, without much in the way of real world skills to bring to the situation. The other's a highly adaptable and skilled heartless sociopath who will be your ally for as long as he thinks it's in his best interest, but will slit your throat or otherwise exploit you the minute he thinks that's in his best interest. War (or survival situations) make strange bedfellows, who do you keep?

I keep the guy who won't fork me over.
I have to agree with this as well. I am all for giving people the benefit of the doubt, but once they prove they are not trustworthy or are a danger to me and mine, my concern over their well being drops off significantly.
raptor wrote: Anyone know if there is an asshat gene? If so it must be a dominant gene.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by HKTackDriver » Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:02 pm

There is nothing you did wrong on any level. I'm not a real bleeding heart type, but I'd take my wife's family in, even if they were a convicted felon - assuming it wasn't a sex offendor or violent crime. It is concerning that he has a felony DWI conviction - most states require at least one prior misdemeanor conviction, which means he probably had one prior to that which was reduced. The fact that he had jail time and was on parole - not probation, means it was probably a second felony DWI (now we're up to 4 likely DWI's) OR more likely, he hurt someone while behind the wheel.

HOWEVER, now that my brain is done working that out, it's still just a DWI and not something horrendous, so I'd let it be. Following the incident with your daughter, you also did the right thing - in every conceivable way. Giving him seconds to get out, keeping his stuff there - all good. Just pray he doesn't go to landlord tenant court and claim an unlawful eviction. But he likely wouldn't do that due to the prior threat of police intervention.

Ya done good all the way around. As such, you should sleep well at night.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:30 pm

Update:
Today, the BIL came and got the last of his stuff. Fiance said goodbye to him, I merely offered to open the door when he came down with hands full. I didn't offer him pleasantries or a smile, nothing. Should he ever have the stupidity to show up at my home again, wherever it may be, he'll find a very cold welcome. Which is to say, no welcome at all, and only the courtesy of "get out, now" for a head start.

A lot of good stuff showing up in here, glad to see it. Some background that may be missing (I don't post a lot about it) that may shed some light for folks: I'm an alcoholic; in August, I celebrated 30 years sober. AA has been a big part of my life for a very long time, even before I got sober, through Al-Anon, Al-Ateen, and open AA meetings, as my father was in the program years before I got started drinking. This history is one reason I handled his drinking (or not) as I did. It's up to HIM to stay sober, I cannot and will not do it for him. I've attended meetings with him, when he first came home, but I could see in pretty short time that his focus wasn't on it, he always had something else that needed doing instead.
I've long ago lost any interest in drinking, it simply has no appeal to me anymore, but as an alcoholic, I have to be constantly mindful of the fact that MY addiction can rear it's ugly head at any time, for any reason, and toss out all that I've done up to that point. I'm a little further away from a drink than most, but only because I'm tall, and my arm is longer. As my sponsor told me a long time ago, the soberest guy in the room is whoever got up earliest TODAY.

I chose not to make reports of his drinking because I know from personal experience how hard it can be to get on the wagon and stay there. I wanted to give him that chance, and I still hope he manages to do it. He's not a bad guy, and if he were sober, with a few years under his belt, he and I might turn out to be good friends. But, not now.

My daughter is young, 23- and doesn't drink, do drugs, or run around doing most of the stuff that people her age do. In many ways, I'm VERY proud of her- she has been in a good, stable relationship for 6 years now, and they both have agreed that sex before marriage isn't on the menu. As a result, combined with her naturally less-than-outgoing personality, she has very little experience with people in general, and men in any setting. So, I was seeing warning signs before she was, and then, only because I've seen this sort of thing before. 25 years ago, it was ME doing it! But, 25 years ago, if I was hitting on a girl of 23, it would not be creepy, as I'd have been 23 as well.

If he'd told me he had done this with a girl that age at work, I'd have told him it was a little creepy, and that I thought he was trying to play WAY outside his league, but that would be because it involved someone else's daughter. This involved MY little girl, and as unfair as it sounds, and probably is, that's just the way it is, I make no apologies for it.

I've also had a sit-down with my fiance, and discussed things with her. I've tried a few times now to help out members of her family- her oldest son, her dad, and now her step-brother. All of them have managed to shit on me for the effort. I'm currently living in my FIL's house in an attempt to save it from foreclosure, and gave up my apartment to do so. In return, I've been called a hoarder (a look in the attic at HIS stuff makes this laughable), and even accused of theft. For now, I'm stuck there, but my charity does know limits, and first chance I get, I'm out. My stepson has been a disappointment in so many ways, he deserves his own forum, a single thread couldn't handle it. Again, it's an addiction, in his case; pot. Now, this thing with the BIL. I've told her I'm done- there will be NO more help available for her family from me, I don't care who needs what. She says she agrees with me, but if it turns into another episode where someone asks, I'm not sure she'll stick with that decision. I will, and I've told her I will, even if it means we split up.

As a minister, I try to do what I can for who I can. I'm a strong believer in charity through action, not donation. Being used at times is an occupational hazard, and one I'm well aware of. However, I hold the control over how far and how long it goes on- if it gets out of hand, I'm the only one to blame, because I LET it get that way. You just get used to disappointment after a while, but still try to find the positive in people. And, every so often, you actually get a surprise, and a good deed doesn't end up biting you in the ass.
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