You! OFF the lifeboat!

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You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:48 pm

Or, if you prefer: Today, I threw a family member out of the house.

Not sure where to post this one. And, it was actually a week ago now I did it- I've been waiting til I cooled down sufficiently to write about it with a clear head. I hope a week was enough.

Back in March, my fiance's brother got out of prison on parole, where he was serving a DWI sentence. He had no place to go to, since his ex divorced him while he was in prison, and without an address set up beforehand, he'd be denied parole. In steps the kindly Knight, and we offer to put him up till he finds his own place. Ground rules were, he was not to drink, per parole rules, and other than that, he was a big boy, he was on his own. He found not one, but TWO jobs, and paid rent to us for the room. Pretty much, he contributed to the household, and stayed out of the way. Two months in, and he started drinking again- I'm 30 years sober, and it's not like I can't tell what it smells like, or not notice a change in behavior from before and after he 'took a walk". Whatever, he wasn't drinking in the house, and he's a big boy, if he doesn't want to get sober, I can't do it for him. I let it slide.

A month ago, my daughter moves in with us, and it's all pretty cool. A while later, I notice he's chatting with her a lot more, and my radar lights up. I told her to inform me IMMEDIATELY if he tried anything out of line- he's 47, she's 23. So, one night, right after I left for work, he comes into her room and asks her for a kiss goodnight, while under the influence. She said no, he left, and she came downstairs looking for me- she told my fiance', since I was gone ( a REAL big deal, since she's not one to form close relationships with people, and wouldn't have told her real mother in this case). Fiance' calls my job, and I walk into work to a waiting phone call about it. This is my youngest daughter, and in some ways, my favorite. I retained enough calm to get the details before acting, and all he did was ask for a kiss, he didn't try anything else.

Still, I was so angry, that before long, I was actually vibrating with rage. I had decided to stay at work, because if I went home, I'd put my hands on him, and then the cops would be involved, as would an ambulance, and it would just not go well. I work till 7AM, and he leaves for his one job at 4AM, so he wasn't home when I got there. When he arrived home between jobs, I met him at the door. Told him to grab what he needed for tonight, and to GTFO, last night was his last night under my roof. And, before he even tried to offer excuses or denials, I told him I had almost been expecting this, I'd been watching, and thew fact that he waited till I'd left told me he'd thought it out first. He could come get his stuff when he had a place for it, but if he came back to the house when I wasn't there, he'd be arrested- and ANY police contact is a parole violation.

He wanted to talk about it, and I stayed across the room from him. I told him I didn't want to hear it, this was NOT up for discussion, and that coming closer to me was a bad idea- I was so angry with him that I wanted to pound on him till he was just a mysterious stain in the carpet. He wanted to stay til he found a place, and I explained to him that, after I got told, so did her boyfriend, and I had spent a half hour talking him out of coming over with a loaded 30.06- add to the mix my own feelings, and I couldn't guarantee his safety in the house anymore- from the boyfriend OR me. He got his stuff for the night after he he got off work from the second job, and made one trip back, calling first, to pick up his stuff since then, with one trip left to make.

I'm giving him time to get his stuff, after all, I gave him zero notice to find a place beforehand, and he hasn't been dragging his feet so far. Up to this point, he's out, no one went to the hospital or to jail, so I'm calling it a win. My daughter hasn't been too sure just how I felt, since I'm not one to talk about my feelings much, and this has shown her the grizzly bear protecting it's young side of me, so that's helped our relationship quite a bit. So, that's another big win.

So, why air my dirty laundry on the internet? Well, I saw another thread about one family member abusing another, and couldn't read it- this is a topic that gets my blood boiling in no time at all, like nothing else can. Anyone hurting kids- especially my own- is a topic I have a hard time dealing with while remaining cool and rational. So, I'd like feedback- WWYD's, attaboys, whatever. How do you deal with something like this that pretty much forces you to put someone out of the house, BOL, bunker, what-have-you, to suddenly fend for themselves, even if it IS for the benefit of the rest of the group?
silentpoet wrote: My first two warning shots are aimed center of mass. If that don't warn them I fire warning shots at their head until they are warned enough that I am no longer in fear for my life.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:18 am

Why'd you let him in in the first place? Did the fiance' want to help him out? I've just been through some pretty ridiculous shit involving substance abusing family members and giving parolees second chances. Never again.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by TacAir » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:20 am

How did your SO take it? It was her brother after all.

As for the bum, he's a bum. Drinking may be a disease (Not in MOO < but that's me) - if he didn't seek treatment, he will die, it that simple.

I worked with (fill in your PC term for alkys) in an ER setting for more than a couple of years. They were all comitting slow suicide - and taking everyone else along for the ride. You found a cancer/burning ember/some other useless analogy - and cut it out of your life before it destroyed anyone else in the family.

Don't feel bad, feel good for what you have saved youeself from.

NOW, how is your SO going to deal with it - is she co-depentant? Maybe time for her / both of you to see someone professional. Or her brother could become a point of contention for you both for a very long time....

Good luck.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:34 am

WE let him into our home as an agreed upon decision. I'd met him last August at his mom's funeral, and he seemed OK, plus my fiance's vouched for him. Being a recovering alky myself (30yrs sober), I wanted to help him help himself, IF he was willing to do the legwork required. He'd rather drink, it seems.

The fiance' is totally on-board with this decision, brother or not- wrong is wrong, and there's just no gift-wrapping that turd to look like something pretty. We both agree, my daughter (OUR daughter, as she feels about it) HAS to feel comfortable in what is now her own home. He ruined that, and this was how I fixed it. Time will tell if this becomes an issue later on, but I have told her I'm DONE helping her family members- they are all pigeons, and want to treat me like a statue. I'm done being shit on for the effort.

So, in a similar situation, what would you do? Zombies are chomping away outside the door, and you have this to deal with.
silentpoet wrote: My first two warning shots are aimed center of mass. If that don't warn them I fire warning shots at their head until they are warned enough that I am no longer in fear for my life.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by dukman » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:38 am

Wow... you have pretty good restraint. I would have followed him and then videotaped him while tipsy and had it mysteriously turn up on his parole officers desk. :mrgreen:
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:42 am

dukman wrote:Wow... you have pretty good restraint. I would have followed him and then videotaped him while tipsy and had it mysteriously turn up on his parole officers desk. :mrgreen:
I'll be honest- I'd considered that, and worse. However, I'd already told him when he moved in that he was an adult, and I expected to act as such- I wouldn't turn him in for drinking, but I was NOT going to cover for him, either. (Plus, I already had and still have a good working relationship with the parole dept guys, and I'm not screwing that up on his account). I held true to my word, in every way, through this, while still doing a dirty job that had to be done, and I'm not regretting a single part of it. No one can come back to me later on, and say I was at fault for a single thing in this.
silentpoet wrote: My first two warning shots are aimed center of mass. If that don't warn them I fire warning shots at their head until they are warned enough that I am no longer in fear for my life.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by raptor » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:43 am

Clearly he was out of bounds in asking for a kiss as he did. IMO he had more on his mind.

No one was hurt. He is gone. You did your duty to help him/wife. You did your duty to protect your family.

After two months and off the wagon I would have asked him to leave for that reason. IMO he broke his promise to you then.

Do not feel guilty and DO NOT hurt him in any way.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Clockwork John » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:56 am

This may sound pretty harsh, but I watched my mom drink herself to death...

If the prison time wasn't enough of a wake up call, and he's willing to trespass on your hospitality like that, fuck him. You did a kind thing by giving a place to stay, and if he didn't appreciate it enough to keep straight, let him live (or die) the way he wants- just NOT under your roof.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by bae » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:03 am

You are far more understanding than I was with my brother-in-law, in semi-similar circumstances.

He's no longer with us....

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by KnightoftheRoc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:23 am

I appreciate the pats on the back, but I'd like to hear how others would handle something like this when the SHTF. I'm cool with how I handled this, no regrets (aside from it happening in the first place, of course), and I'm not second guessing myself on it. He's out, drama concluded, I need do nothing more unless he decides to do something later on in retaliation or something, and frankly, I don't see that happening. The size disparity between us is nearly a 2:1 ratio, and he honestly doesn't seem like he's ever consumed enough booze to get THAT brave. Instructions for when I'm not home have been issued, and the cops can have him if he starts anything later on.

So, like I said before- the zombies are moaning outside the door, and you have something like this to deal with- how do you handle it ?
(And let's keep the forum rules in mind, please- no >ahem< "mercy killings" or other ass-hattery).
silentpoet wrote: My first two warning shots are aimed center of mass. If that don't warn them I fire warning shots at their head until they are warned enough that I am no longer in fear for my life.

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Bonecrusher Doc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:32 am

I'd say you made a thoughtful decision of where on the Charity<->Security spectrum you should be and did a good job keeping your emotions in check as you stuck by that decision. It's a little more towards the Charity side than I would go under those circumstances but that's just me, I'm not judging. It would be especially hard to not give somebody one more chance when you've been in that situation yourself. Overall, BRAVO on the way you conducted yourself but I would take great pains not to let him get anywhere near your family again... if he would violate your trust after you took him in... especially the way he did... then he is never to be trusted again. IMHO, It would be like letting a full-grown mountain lion into your home based on the fact that it hadn't eaten anybody recently...
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Bonecrusher Doc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:35 am

KnightoftheRoc wrote:I appreciate the pats on the back, but I'd like to hear how others would handle something like this when the SHTF. I'm cool with how I handled this, no regrets (aside from it happening in the first place, of course), and I'm not second guessing myself on it. He's out, drama concluded, I need do nothing more unless he decides to do something later on in retaliation or something, and frankly, I don't see that happening. The size disparity between us is nearly a 2:1 ratio, and he honestly doesn't seem like he's ever consumed enough booze to get THAT brave. Instructions for when I'm not home have been issued, and the cops can have him if he starts anything later on.

So, like I said before- the zombies are moaning outside the door, and you have something like this to deal with- how do you handle it ?
(And let's keep the forum rules in mind, please- no >ahem< "mercy killings" or other ass-hattery).
Oh... hm. To be charitable in a desperate situation, maybe I would let him stay in the garage or in a tent in the backyard but still lock him out of the house. Kinda like quarantining somebody who you know has a disease (which arguably he does) when you don't want to just turn them away to die.
Bonecrusher Doc wrote: I'd say this has at least a little justification as a mental exercise.
JamesCannon wrote:Yes, well there's the right way and wrong way to exercise, and the wrong way can lead to injury and/or damage. :P

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 1:40 am

Sorry for the cop out answer, really not trying to be a smartass or a jerk. I think it was great of you to offer him a second chance, and maybe it was necessary for the fiance' to see him start to betray you before she could get on board with the "he stays out!" rule. I understand your reasons for letting him in and they are good ones, and really you'd have to have been kind of an asshole not to extend some kind of assistance to the guy.

I would not have extended any kind of assistance to the guy. When SHTF he's one problem I don't have to deal with because I prepared by preemptively banishing him.

But hypothetically, zombies are at the door and he's still in my house? Well, that's a problem isn't it. To chuck him out would be murder, to let him stay would be introducing the daughter to a source of danger - like SMOAF's hypothetical, but with adults. I don't trust him in the house with my daughter, or any of my guns or other weapons. And what if the Zeds get me, leaving him and my daughter as survivors under the same roof?

If I caught him in the act of assaulting or forcing himself on my daughter, I would be mindful of the self defense laws in my state that permit lethal force to defend against imminent "death, grievous bodily harm or sexual assault." Any grown daughter of mine would aware of those laws as well, and have the means to do something about it.
(ETA: I'm not implying that the fiancee's brother is a rapist. So far he's just a sexual harasser. Rape is a worste case scenario, but you worry about it. Prior to him making the creepy inappropriate pass in her bedroom, was the daughter disturbed or made uncomfortable by his increased chattiness and attention? Think it was harmless? Oblivious to his intentions? Scared?)

I couldn't just send him straight to his death, but I think I'd throw him out the minute the most imminent danger had passed. The hurricane's blown over, the zeds are about but not right in the front yard, etc. - chuck him out the door. Sooner if he does anything else to threaten or endanger the other survivors in the house. And I'd pat myself on the back for getting rid of him. If he ever came back he'd find a locked and guarded door.
Last edited by squinty on Sun Oct 02, 2011 4:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by CiggsWar » Sun Oct 02, 2011 2:11 am

We had a guy living out back in a trailer, landloards idea, but again same senerio really of boozing and drugs and flipping out. Every gave him a fair chance and blew it away for booze and drugs. nothing you can do. A zed waiting to happen is all. In the SHTF senerio don't come here, hesitation won't be there. Rules of engaugement as always from oaths sworn, following the proceedure of protection of women and children country, they be federal one's too.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by doitnstyle1 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:04 am

A person who can't respect themselves to stop using, be it booze or drugs in a down to the wire situation like this while on parole would not care enough to control it during a long term stressful event like PAW. That person is always a liability. Unless you are willing to contribute a significant amount of energy following up on him constantly, he may relapse the moment he thinks you are not looking. Again a major liability. I say sorry. You had your chance, you blew it, these are the consequences. The consequences of you letting him back in may be greater(death of a family member because of his negligence) than the consequences of you keeping him out (your wife hating you for not letting him in and keeping the family unit intact).
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by phil_in_cs » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:36 am

My wife and I have taken in a number of strays over the year, with reasonable results. The failures have been from not having enough rules - not requiring swift enough progress towards getting out on their own. Hindsight is 20/20, but allowing him big boy rules when he'd demonstrated (the conviction) that he can't handle big boy rules was the issue. No drinking per parole ought to be no drinking at all. Zero Tolerance.

On the subject of similar issues after TSHTF: you better believe you will have problems. We had a good discussion a few years ago on the "I'm bugging out to your place" concept. Everyone you know knows you're a prepper, whether they say so or not. You will be flooded with kin and others. Some of those people will be worth taking in (useful skills) and some will not. On the kin, you and your wife ought to talk this out now, not after the crisis has happened. As I've said in the past, if your plan involves shooting your wife's sister, you had better discuss that with your wife first.

What do you do when some kin show up on your doorstep? They've used any supplies they might have had, and any skills they know might not be useful. Getting a plan between you and your wife set is needed now. Plans plural, as we've taken in people for the Rita and Ike evacuations we wouldn't take in if we knew the situation was going to be permanent. Not every situation is the same, but the ideas and concepts are consistent.

You titled this with respect to Lifeboat rules, and I think that is dead on. Today, you have enough slack (extra space/wealth/time) to deal with this guy, and even to give him the time to figure out his own problems. If that slack doesn't exist, neither does the time to let people learn. When you need to enforce rules (such as pushing someone out into a horde of zombies) the process will be much easier if people know what to expect.

Where your entire group would fall apart would be if you were seen to be enforcing rules randomly or just making them up as you go.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 8:57 am

There are family members who, while reasonably supplied, aren't hard core preppers. I've extended invitations for them to come to me if their homes are threatened or compromised, in exchange for them promising to take me if the situation were reversed. I've agreed to take the risk of less prepared/less serious people into my home in exchange for access to redundant, more convenient BOLS that have the security virtue of being occupied year round. Very conscious of having to be a "good guest" if I go to one of their homes. I will probably rub them the wrong way after a short time if I'm not careful. I know they can bug me. One Uncle, ex-Air Force, is pretty competent and resourceful - or would be, if he weren't a chronic alcoholice. Unlike the Knight's future brother in law, he's been sober for a few years and diligently attends 12 step meetings, because he knows he'll lose his family if he doesn't. Not sure how he'll cope in a disaster - he's kind of an alpha, thrive on crisis sort of guy, he might rise to the occasion, but he's also a lifelong hard drinker. Not sure what the stress of a PAW would do to his recovery. I'm also sure that, despite having done some outrageously irresponsible and regrettable things, he wouldn't try to bone a relatives unwilling daughter. He might try to drive, shoot or handle tools while drunk though. Also not sure how a chronic alcoholic (one without a good handle on the disease and lot's of sober time) would handle the stress of a disaster - even if there was no way to get drunk. Without the emotional crutch of alcohol to help him manage his stress, he might go to pieces in other ways.

Sorry for the rambling post and the far stray off topic. Back OT sorta: I think KOTR did his wife's brother a favor by kicking him out. The brother needs to hit bottom before he'll get serious about recovering, maybe this eviction and embarrassment about hitting on the daughter might be his bottom. And if TS ever does HTF, at least you kicked him out now while he can still look for another place. Better than turning him out into the middle of a hurricane or waiting horde of zeds.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by T-Boon » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:35 am

TBH I think your reaction was spot on.

I`m a very Charitable person, but as soon as someone takes advantage of that, its over.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Bonecrusher Doc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:59 am

squinty wrote: I think KOTR did his wife's brother a favor by kicking him out. The brother needs to hit bottom before he'll get serious about recovering, maybe this eviction and embarrassment about hitting on the daughter might be his bottom. And if TS ever does HTF, at least you kicked him out now while he can still look for another place. Better than turning him out into the middle of a hurricane or waiting horde of zeds.
I agree wth Squinty. Now that I think about it, kicking him out after he broke agreed upon conditions wasn't just a security decision - it was the right thing to do "charitably" as well.
Bonecrusher Doc wrote: I'd say this has at least a little justification as a mental exercise.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by ei8htx » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:17 am

You did exactly what I would've done.

You set the rules beforehand and then execute. You don't waiver. It's so much simpler that way.

How the hell did he get prison time for a DWI?

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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Hollis » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:20 am

You probably know all of this stuff.

Some thoughts, First it reminds me of a Murphy law, "No good deed goes unpunished". It really depends one the person.

Second thought, he was in for DWI, I think there is a big hint there.
Drinking, I would have required from him and probably a part of his probation is sobriety. That he joins AA or some other X step program.

As you mentioned he was intoxicated when he tried the funny business.

Some people learn their lesson and would have avoided booze, some don't. Obviously he did not.

Also for family of boozers there is a program Al-Anon.

http://www.al-anon.alateen.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I would have kicked him out too. The only person who can really help him, is himself. Family and friends, if they are not careful, can only become enablers. Which is a natural thing family and friends want to do.

If sobriety is a part of his probation, I would also report him to his PO. There are books on "Tough Love", but that is was addicts need.

Thanks for posting, there are lot of people with this issue or similar to it. Maybe not so much for you, but maybe it will help someone else in the future dealing with a alky or druggie.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by squinty » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:48 am

ei8htx wrote:You did exactly what I would've done.

You set the rules beforehand and then execute. You don't waiver. It's so much simpler that way.

How the hell did he get prison time for a DWI?
It happens. Probably by driving drunk and getting caught. A lot. Or causing serious injury or damage in a DWI accident. Or got a real hard-ass judge. Or was too bull headed to accept a plea deal.
Or, is our good Knight just taking the brothers word for why he did time? Nah. Foil hat off.
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Bonecrusher Doc » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:26 am

KnightoftheRoc wrote: I'd already told him when he moved in that he was an adult, and I expected to act as such- I wouldn't turn him in for drinking, but I was NOT going to cover for him, either. (Plus, I already had and still have a good working relationship with the parole dept guys, and I'm not screwing that up on his account).
This may have been a mistake if you told him "I won't call your parole officer if you drink." He may have interpreted that the wrong way.
Bonecrusher Doc wrote: I'd say this has at least a little justification as a mental exercise.
JamesCannon wrote:Yes, well there's the right way and wrong way to exercise, and the wrong way can lead to injury and/or damage. :P

Prepared American
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Re: You! OFF the lifeboat!

Post by Prepared American » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:55 am

I know you dnt need anymore pats on the back, but I can't refrain from saying good job knight. You dealt with it swiftly and justly and no one got hurt. If someone was to behave the same way to my daughter I can't say for certain I could handle it as maturely as you did.

I have tried to help out family before, when my wife and i where first married, she went back to college to switch from being a teacher to a RN, and i was still frequently working "out of town", her youngest sister who was 17 at the time had started running with the wrong crowd, and getting into a lot of trouble, so i agreed to let her move in with us (different town), I figured since we lived in a rural community in a rural area at the time, that she could help my wife around the house while I was away, and get a ne start, plus safety in numbers.

Well lets just say this came back to bite me in the ass, I came home one day a week ahead of schedule, thought I would surprise my wife (remember we where still newley weds). Well my wife was in town at school, and my sister in law was having a party with some kids from her town and some older as in my age adults drinking and smoking dope. To say I was angry is an understatement. I kept my cool though, I called her mother and had her come and pick my sister in law up as well as all her stuff, she was no longer welcome in my home, I tossed the other hoodlums out explaining to them the consequences if i saw thm anywhere near my home or family again. Thankfully I never had another issue with them. My sister in law still has not been back in our home since, and that was nearly 20 years ago. To top it off a few days later we found where she had stolen about $500 from us between cash and pawnable items. Haven't recooped that either.

After that I am leay about helping family beyond maybe loaning a little money or helping them out with some manual labor.

My situation in my opinion is not asbad as what you had as your daughter in my eyes anyway perceived a threat, and that is unexcusable, if it happened to me in a SHTF situation I believe I would still toss the guy out on his are, as heis as much of a threat as the zombies to the safety and well being of my family.

Again kudos KofR, I think you did absolutely the right thing.
Hoping to bring back common sense to the prepping community.
dogbane wrote:It's not your post count, it's making posts count.

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